Forums: Rules Questions: Silksworn and Sleeves of Many Garments (2024)

If a silksworn occultist is using Sleeves of Many Garments, do they count as having the appropriate implement if:

a) They are wearing an ostentatious garment in the appropriate slot, whether or not they appear to be wearing such a garment.
b) They appear to be wearing an ostentatious garment in the appropriate slot, whether or not they actually are.
c) Only if they both are actually wearing an ostentatious garment in the appropriate slot AND said garment is visible.
d) Other?

And just in case:

Cool, that makes sense, thanks. As long as I know how stylish I am, I'm magic.

Follow-up: does a courtier's outfit ("fancy, tailored clothes" costing 30gp) count as one or more implements? Or conversely, if I'm wearing a fancy shirt, boots, gloves, and cloak worth at least 40gp total to satisfy implement requirements (plus 50gp of jewelry), should it give the benefits of a courtier's outfit because I'm wearing more than 30gp worth of fancy, tailored clothing?

Also remember that the sleeves count as your abjuration (wrists) implement when worn.

As to a courtier's outfit, I'd say no. It really has to be slot by slot. However, there are already items that can fill in for those slots:

Stiletto boots/Hollow-heeled boot: feet
Neck guard/Pomander (merchant's)/Scarf (pocketed/reinforced): neck
Long gloves: hands
Reversible cloak/Adventurer's sash/Scarf (pocketed/reinforced): shoulders
Various masks/eye patches/goggles/glasses: eyes
Vest/corset/tabard: chest

You might as well get items that give bonuses or have other uses. ;)

There's no school associated with the body slot, but there is a chest slot (for necromancy), which includes shirts, vests, and jackets.

Pretty much all of the outfits contain some kind of shirt and some kind of footwear, and often a cloak, so it seems like a courtier's outfit might include a shirt, boots, or cloak that individually is worth at least 10gp - though likely not all three.

Even if it is important to buy things slot-by-slot, it seems logical that a character with a shirt worth 10gp (chest), boots worth 10gp (feet), cloak worth 10gp (shoulders), and perhaps an extra 10gp in accessories (pants, belt) is effectively wearing a courtier's outfit.

The reason I'm asking is that I've played characters who are "well dressed" for social/RP reasons before, but this is the first character I'm playing where it's mechanically enforced. I'm trying to figure out how to translate between the slot-by-slot gear and the overall impression others get of my character's fashion choices.

graystone wrote:

You might as well get items that give bonuses or have other uses. ;)

While it's a good idea, I don't think all those items count. The items have to be not just valuable, but "ostentatious." The stiletto boots are actually described as "ostentatious," so they should be fair game. But I have a hard time seeing how a neck guard qualifies. Maybe if you add bling, but that should also increase the price.

Interestingly, I'm now noticing that Archives of Nethys has specifically listed "ostentatious garment" for this purpose.

Weirdo wrote:

While it's a good idea, I don't think all those items count. The items have to be not just valuable, but "ostentatious." The stiletto boots are actually described as "ostentatious," so they should be fair game. But I have a hard time seeing how a neck guard qualifies. Maybe if you add bling, but that should also increase the price.

ALL "ostentatious" means is 'designed to impress or attract notice'. That means all it has to do is one of those. Paint that neck guard hot pink, and NOW it's "ostentatious". As such, I don't see why any item with a 10+ gp cost that's painted/dyed to 'to attract notice' isn't an implement for the silksworn. It would be different is it required gaudy, as that has a connotation of 'being in bad taste'.

Courtier's outfit: The issue with trying to divide out what's in the outfit is there is no breakdown of what's actually IN one. There isn't even a way to prove the outfit even comes with shoes/boots for instance. Secondly, if you try to break it down, there are most likely more than 3 items in it, meaning that each would cost under 10gp. Let's say it has 'shoes/boots, hose or a skirt, a belt, a shirt, a vest or corset, gloves, and a cloak'. You're looking at around 7 gp per item.

Ostentatious garment: The item is described as a fill in for "items not listed elsewhere". It's just basically there is you want something exotic not in the game. So if I want to wear a fake butterfly wings on my back, it costs 10gp and it weighs a pound.

graystone wrote:

Courtier's outfit: The issue with trying to divide out what's in the outfit is there is no breakdown of what's actually IN one. There isn't even a way to prove the outfit even comes with shoes/boots for instance. Secondly, if you try to break it down, there are most likely more than 3 items in it, meaning that each would cost under 10gp. Let's say it has 'shoes/boots, hose or a skirt, a belt, a shirt, a vest or corset, gloves, and a cloak'. You're looking at around 7 gp per item.

Which is when we move on to the second question: If we assume that no single item in the outfit is worth more than 10gp, is a character wearing fancy boots, shirt, gloves, and cloak effectively wearing most of a courtier's outfit?

How would you handle a silksworn who wanted people to react to them as if they were wearing a courtier's outfit?

Because I could see a GM ruling that a PC wearing hollow-heeled boots, a neck guard, adventurer's sash, and smoked goggles can't also benefit from a courtier's outfit because these items either displace or spoil the effect of the outfit.

Could you use sleeves of many garments to mimic a courtier's outfit, since the bonus it provides is based on what people perceive you as wearing, rather than the physical properties of the clothes?

graystone wrote:

Ostentatious garment: The item is described as a fill in for "items not listed elsewhere". It's just basically there is you want something exotic not in the game. So if I want to wear a fake butterfly wings on my back, it costs 10gp and it weighs a pound.

The description also says: "While such garments usually offers no benefit beyond fashion, a silksworn occultist must wear several such garments of suitable quality to access her magic." Which implies that this specific item is required, and not other items worth 10gp or more.

Weirdo wrote:

The description also says: "While such garments usually offers no benefit beyond fashion, a silksworn occultist must wear several such garments of suitable quality to access her magic." Which implies that this specific item is required, and not other items worth 10gp or more.

That's not what the class says though. The requirement is "an ostentatious garment or magic item worth 10 gp or more of the appropriate type and in the appropriate slot". All the Quote you posted means is that the generic 'ostentatious garment' listed has no benefit. That means that if you take the example "elaborate wigs, silk-lined cloaks, and ruffled blouses", they don't give a bonus on disguise/diplomacy, help with bad weather, ect. It's to explain the listed 'ostentatious garment' is useless other than fashion: the fact that it "covers items not listed elsewhere" means it can't make an implication on those items. So I can't see the argument as a particularly valid one.

Weirdo wrote:

How would you handle a silksworn who wanted people to react to them as if they were wearing a courtier's outfit?

Has anyone ever stopped a Cold-weather outfit from working because you had magic boots, cloak, vest or gloves? For me, outfits are a separate thing from the item slots. Outfits are in addition to magic items you wear and they don't vanish because you wear boots other than the ones that came with it. This is especially true of an undefined outfit like the courtier's: who's to say they don't include "hollow-heeled boots, a neck guard, adventurer's sash, and smoked goggles"? If we nitpick the exact items in it, then you have to figure that out for every area [Tain courtier's are different that one from Cheliax or Numeria]. Seems like lots of work for little gain.

I’m building a Silksworn Occultist for an upcoming home brew AP and I briefly considered the question of the Sleeves of Many Garments for my character. I think the value requirement is met in the strictest sense. Really, 10gp per garment is not egregious and the value of the sleeves is greater than the sum total of all your 10gp ostentatious garment implements so it seems perfectly reasonable to use a set.

That said, I ended up deciding that my character would not use the Sleeves. My reasoning is that a person who draws his power from being dressed up and who possesses an unusual appreciation for fancy clothes would likely not be interested in only appearing to have huge, variable, expensive and/or rare wardrobe. They would actually want to have it. A person passionate about skateboarding doesn’t just swap his trucks from one deck to the next; a person passionate about cars doesn’t just change out his seat covers from one car to the next; a person passionate about watches doesn’t just change out the straps...that sort of thing. My character wants ALL the clothes.

Not only that but imagine the embarrassment of losing the appearance you’ve chosen because your Sleeves are disabled or suppressed somehow. Then everyone would know that you’ve been faking your flashy wardrobe all this time. It would be scandalous! Only posers use Sleeves of Many Garments.

I’ve selected a traveller’s outfit for free (the character is a tailor at a trade faire away from his hometown) and bought all the ostentatious garments I need for implements.

born_of_fire: While I can see that thinking for some silksworn, I can also see a silksworn that wears the implements for the power and not any innate appreciation for fancy clothes. One might not like to stand out but understand the benefits of doing so.

As to the Sleeves of Many Garments, I think it only meets the requirements of your wrist slot implement. The class cares about both looks and slots, the sleeves can only change the looks. Even the looks part is iffy: if you allow it to fill in for any slot, then all those slots vanish if you go invisible...

Thematically, this is the kind of character who does have an innate appreciation for fancy clothes, but also understands the importance of presentation and that it is simply not practical to pack your entire wardrobe for a long expedition. So the Sleeves do feel in-character, and I think they may be useful for keeping a low profile - and possibly for giving the social benefits of the courtier's outfit if I don't feel like being low profile? I didn't hear any feedback on that idea, but it seems like it fits with what the Sleeves are supposed to do.

graystone, I think you are correct about outfits being separate from slots. If it comes up as a GM I'll let players get a single chest, shoulder, or foot implement out of the courtier's outfit but as a player I'll expect to buy them separately.

However, I think there's still some uncertainty over whether a pink neck guard counts. I've started a new thread, since I'd like to get some more viewpoints and I think that's more likely with a more appropriate title.